Host: KoJo
Guest: Barbara Reynolds ( a member of Evangel Temple) and Mae Harrison (a former member of Evangel Temple).
KoJo: Good Evening I don't know about you, but I don't like arguing religion and so tonight that is not what we are going to do.We are not going to compare religions and talk about the relative benefits of one over another. Our discussion will be much more narrowly reported because while we don't like arguing religion we cannot avoid religious controversy. And there is some religious controversy over what you might call the relationship between church an churchgoer. What do you see as being reasonable-- what do you consider as being maybe socially acceptable. It's called supporting your church. Where do you draw the line?
And case in point -- Evangel Temple a church on Rhode Island Avenue, N.W. was the subject of an article recently in the Washington Post. It said that there was a significance controversy within that church over what some people saw as an excessive request for contributions to the church's building fund. Now, and if that controversy alone was not enough, it turns out in the eyes of some people, that since the church is seeking to relocate apparently in Montgomery County, it has a predominately black congregation now, some people argue that one of the reasons for seeking to relocate is to expand the church's if you will, racial boundaries. To get more white people in the church as it moves to Montgomery County. It is said and have been claimed that the head of the church would like to get a broadcast ministry going at nation- wide level but in order to do that he has to broaden the audience that is now seeking to use so to speak, his black parishioners to expand it and like that.
We will explore and see whether those charges are valid or not and what you feel about the relationship between church and churchgoer. We are doing that with Barbara Reynolds who joins us in her capacity as a journalist. Who joins us in her capacity both as a journalist and in the capacity as a member of Evangel Temple. Welcome Barbara.
Also joining us -- Rev. Mae Harrison, who is co- pastor of the Arise Christian Tabernacle. She was a member of Evangel Temple church and left I guess, under some degree of protest and formed your own church, Arise Christian Tabernacle in 1986. Why did you leave the church?
Mae: I became very depressed over some of the things that were going on in the church. And I also felt that I couldn't use my abilities -- my gifts ahh freely in that ahh congregation. So ahh-- I felt led with my husband and my sons to form our own church. To supposedly fulfill some of those things.
Kojo: What specifically were you dissatisfied with?
Mae: Well, Ahh I did not like the nepotism that was presented there -- that I was exposed to and I didn't like the procedures or the techniques they used for raising money.
Kojo: What specifically didn't you like about the techniques for raising money.?
Mae: There seemed to be a lot of pressure on people-- to ahh and use of the scriptures to support that pressure. And I might add-- undue pressure. And ahh-- for me it was gradual thing. Because when I first joined the church, I was very much please with what I saw. But when I became a deacon I begin to see things that were somewhat misleading.
Kojo: But you join church. I guess, initially for spiritual upliftment --
Mae: Yes, I did.
Kojo: --and you found that in that church. Then you rose after a period of time to the position of deacon. Then you got the position of deacon, What specifically didn't you like? Did you feel your voice was being stifled in some way?
Mae: Of course, yes. And there was not a freedom to speak what you felt. And as a matter of fact, people have left the church. I know at least forty people that have left the church in the last three months myself. And it is a very large congregation. I don't know that many people -- even when I was there -- Even in my capacity as deacon. Ahh But people have called me since-- A lot of them don't know why I left because I was afraid to share it-- and I think that's one of the things that makes it hard. When you can't speak your mind. When there's that freedom that Jesus promised us that we would have. Ahh --You don't have it there. And ahh-- I recently talked with a friend of mine, who is still there,--and she had met another friend--she didn't know was not there and they were afraid to talk about this issue. And through the conversation --one said something and the other said, and they finally realized, "I didn't know you saw it that way"-- and they were able to share. But there is a restriction.
Kojo: Well people join churches and people leave churches. There's nothing particularly unusual about that. But in this case you're saying that the leaving is more than can normally be expected and that that has to do with the fact that people feel-- some people feel repressed within their congregation. But obviously there are other people --and we will talk to Barbara in a minute-- but there are other people who feel quite happy. You said that you and your husband took out a second mortgage in order to meet the building fund. Was that beyond your ability to pay?
Mae: Beyond our means? No, It was not, But I think on the- the technique used--we were taken out of the city (the deacon were) on a trip. And they wined and dined you. And then the next day. They presented--supposedly what God had said, that each member that worked was suppose to give $5,000. And ahh that's the thing I object to.
Kojo: Over what period of time?
Mae: Over a period of five months. And ahh they said that, God said it-- and that's what bothered me. At first we got caught up in the wining and dining--and they always used the fact that you were a deacon. You were suppose to be committed to your leaders and the spiritual authority and all that. So you felt the pressure. I you didn't do what they said to do, that some how God was going to bring down His wrath on you.
Kojo: So you made an attempt to meet it?
Mae: Yes we did.
Kojo: And at what point did you decide you no longer wanted to do this?
Mae: When I felt I could know longer take the entire environment. Because I didn't have the freedom to do what I-- the freedom to talk or speak --or even ask questions about what was going on. Why and how did God say $5.000. And even the "borrowing and selling" too.
Kojo: Barbara you have been at Evangel Temple for about seven years or so.
Barbara: Right.
Kojo: You find spiritual upliftment there.
Barbara: Yes.
Kojo: Do you have any problems with what Rev. Harrison--Pastor Harrison has described here about the method for raising money?
Barbara: Well I find the whole thing very sad, because Evangel Temple meant so much to so many people. It has changed my life ahh When I came to this city, I came in one condition and I've been changed from glory to glory. I would like nothing more than to be a member of the church. There was a time when people said, "Oh Barbara, how could you go to a church with white leadership?" And after I began to understand the word, and to say what a very good Christian was, that was not a problem.
The problem comes now in the fund raising. Let me give some very specific examples. People who are older people who live on fixed incomes -- people who are poor have been asked to give $5,000. Two people at home that's $10,000. I've seen older people mortgage their homes--people who should be in the years of their lives to live comfortably under the pressure of debt.
The white minister that came to the church, his name is Rev. James Robinson. He spoke on something that I had been saying that was very scriptural. He said, "the Bible said in Romans 'to owe no man'" an I turned to my friend who was there with me, Vivian Adams. I said, "Vivian, isn't this what I have said," All this fund raising, I'm not talking about tithing, but tithing is one thing--
Kojo: Most churches do it.
Barbara: --Right, this is tax on top of the tithing. I said, "This is not scriptural'. The Bible says "owe no man". Sure---- God would be ministering to the church would talk about it. So later the magazine --the Evangel magazine--it came to my home. And I said, " Oh I'm so glad because here's someone who had finally spoken what I had thought all along. I read the whole article nothing about what the man said about owe no man, nothing about what the brother talked about--let's not get emotional let's look at our bank account, lets have reason. So, I went to the church leadership --being a journalist I was burning.
Kojo: I was about to say Barbara Reynolds is not going to stay in any place where she can't speak up. You --you will speak up.
Barbara: Right, Right, Right. So, I went to them and I said, "Why did you present this article as if it were the truth. You made no reference to what this man said about the pressure and oppression of debt. He said, he did not want to confuse the membership. I said, Oh, you don't want to confuse the membership with facts?" Well---- I think the Bible says you should know the truth and the truth will make you free.
One Sunday I was there and we were suppose to take communion and the leadership began to talk about when we were gong to leave 432 acres that's going to be out near Landum and all the million fund raising thing we were suppose to do-- and we forgot to have communion. Can you imagine that?
Ahh-- so, these were kinds of things that we backed away from and when I came there, I thought we were gong to be building a Garden In The Ghetto, something for the urban community. I don't understand why we're gong to be tucked away in Landham, Maryland. and where I don't think many people have transportation to.
I want to raise the specter of Jim Jones. And I don't want anybody to call me later and say, Barbara you compared the Meares to Jim Jones, because I didn't--But I do want to say this, when that incident happened in California. I said, Oh, what would have happened if there had been a journalist or a TV studio watching Jim Jones-- So my position is whether what they are doing is bad or good, there should be an Evening Exchange watching. There should be a Barbara Reynolds watching, or minister speaking out-- because if it's good, let it stand-- but if it's bad let it fall on its own foundation.
As a journalist, I feel that I would just be there taking notes, writing names recording it. So that if it is a disaster you want to know. So, if its good then let it stand.
Kojo: You strike an interesting balance. You say on one hand, you still getting spiritual upliftment and on the other hand, those things that you disagree with in particularly how the church sees its future. You're willing to stay and speak out.
Barbara: Un huh. Part of it. I was receiving spiritual upliftment. I'm getting less spiritual upliftment because that is now the element of deceit and dishonesty in it---entering. Ahh I don't have ---I'm still hoping for the church that I love to come back to me. because actually I haven't seen another church that has meant as much to me. Ah, during the holidays I had dinner with about 15 people from Evangel Temple--
all of them heart broken. All of them wanted our church--our way of life back again. The pressure the specter of wrong fund raising and deception.
Mae: I would like to say I spent a lot of time during the holidays talking with people that callled me about the same thing. They are hurting people are hurting and the thing that bothered me mostly when I was there was that there was not any black programs and I wonder what they are doing for the blacks community? I didn't see anything and that's where my heart cry was. It was so severe with me and my husband, that when we left we began to visit other churches and we didn't know that black churches were doing so many great things. and that's the tragedy of it all. I would like to say that and you can talk to some of them. We have founded an organization called "Prayer and Watch, PAW and they can write P,O.Box 44365, Fort Washington, Md. 20744. So we can have some conversation. A sharing and there are other people involved, legal people as well as lay people involved.
Kojo: Okay, let me go into the phones in a second and I think we're going to have a few people on the line who are member of Evangel Temple Church. But before we do that, now that you are co-pastor of Arise Christian Tabernacle, What do you ask the members of your congregation to give to your church? what do you consider a reasonable financial obligation between parishioner and church?
Mae: Okay. the tithes of course can be argued.
Kojo: Sure
Mae: I believe, I've always felt this way that people give according to how they feel to do it. It's a free kind of thing. They have to feel free in their spirit. You shouldn't feel pressured.
You shouldn't be forced through meetings. You shouldn't be subjected to advertisement to cause you to give. I spent many meetings where the convesation at the church I just recently left, Evangel Temple--was always on giving. Sort of like a psychological things to prime you to giving the money. And when you hear it all the time, you begin to feel guilty about not giving and that's where I was.
Barbara: Kojo, you know I had seen a time when people had been asked to stand up and explain why they didn't give money. Unfortunately, I wasn't there because I just want them to have me stand up and explain why I don't give the money. But, I that is not the way it's done. I mean, I am for tithing 10% of your income because I have personally understood that the more I have given away--
Kojo: the more has come back.
Barbara: --the more it comes back. But there's more-- its like almost like Oral Roberts in a sense. Its reaching that proportion where you feel a little chicanery--you feel that the money is all --it's more powerful than the blessing.
Kojo: Two points of clarification, Oral Roberts, course, has claimed that in a recent conversation with God, He was told that if he does not raise a certain amount of money by a certain specific Tuesday? God has told that he would take him from this earth. Also, Evangel Temple is not the only church in Washington or in the country where this kind of controversy exists. We raise it an example only because it has been in the news media recently as people are talking about it. We do have to go to the telephones and caller you're on the air go ahead, please.
Caller: I am member of Evangel Temple.
Kojo: Thank you for joining us.
Caller: Thank you. I was very, very concerned about what I'm hearing on television this evening. Mainly because these kinds of issuses are not the kind of issues that ----a public forum. These things are those kinds of issues that we as Christian should be addressing with one another. And being able to come together and address those issues----. The other thing that concerns me quite a bit, is that Evangel Temple has been-- very important within the black community.
Programs for feeding the poor-- programs for clothing.
Kojo: and--and the church has been on this show before. One of the elders has talked about some of the things--the positive things that they have done. Even before this controversy came up.
Caller: That's right. As far as the fund raiser, this concern, I think one can began to search their own heart as to how they should give. I believe that Bishop is the voice of God to the congregation at Evangel Temple and that he was not out of line by requesting that each person make a certain donation. Of course, you know all have different types of abundances and I personally have not completed my pledge but I am not feeling under any pressure. As far as that is concern. No one has brow beat me. I am not under any kind of condemnation. And I plan to meet my pledge.
Kojo: Okay. I understand what you are saying. Let me get back to first issue you raise, and that is that is should be settled within the cofines of that particularly Christian community.
Caller: Well, I am not just talking about within Evangel Temple, but within the Christian community. The body of Christ just does not end at Evangel Temple. It is a full body of Christ. It is all churches -- all people who in the body. And--
Kojo: I think we are broadcasting to what would be a predominately Christian audience. And therefore this would qualify a discussion event within the Christian community.
Caller: I'm not sure that's true. But I really believe that this type of issue should have been something that should be brought up to leadership -- not only within Evangel Temple but possible national leadership as far as the Christian body is concern.
Kojo: But that's the issue we are raising--What is the proper relationship between churchgoer and church nationally or internationally.
Barbara: --We are Biblical. The bible says go tell the news Babylon is fallen. That is what happens when you don't tell the news. When you try to keep something a secret and you whisper in the attic. This is the element of cultism--when you can't talk openly criticize and change things. And every criticism is destructive as destructive. For example, there are times when people have tried to raise issues and have been booed. There are times when people have brought things to the leadership and have been shouted down-- I am sure. You were a deacon, you have seen that more than I have. I have not had the vehicle.
Mae: As a matter of fact, I was informed by one of the elders before I left, because I was disturbed over some things, ahh-- that I had better not go in and make a complaint if I didn't want to come out smelling. So, these kind of things do put fear in your heart. And cause you not to want--you want to cause strife in the church. I would like to make a comment to about, the fact that money was requested when you say God said, that's the thing I had problems with. If the pastor wants me to give, why not say, I am your pastor, I would like to see you give X amount of dollars and that would reduce that deception that I saw. Basing it on --saying God saying--blaming it on God--saying this is what God wants from you.
Also, in reference to the programs, I was a deacon there, granted I did not know everything that went on in the church, but the program of "feed the hungry program", I've talked with the man that was in charged of that. He left because he did not get the support he felt he should have received. Now think as a member of the church, also the "Prison ministry" that deacon has also left. I think these things are saying something to us.
And I think as members if you are there, you need to ask questions about why are these people leaving the church?
Also, as members, we need to know where our tithes are going.
And people have said to me, "I pay my money, I pay my tithes God will take care of it. But no, God has asked us to be responsible stewards of our money. We can't give and expect our pastors to do whatever they choose to do. We have to be asked-- Asked them what are you doing with it. They have to give an account to you. I think this is one reason these kinds of things do happen. Pastors have the freedom to do whatever--because the congregation is passive.
Kojo: Okay. We do have to move on, but do you have a final comment?
Caller: Yes I do.
Kojo: Go right ahead.
Caller: I'd like to make reference to Reverend Harrison. That as a pastor and beginning of a new church--that these types of issues that you are raising now on the public forum, are probably one of the issues that you are going to have to deal with as a pastor in continuing your work. I would just say that to recall this particular converstion as these issues come up an place yourself in the position of the leadership of the Evangel Temple.
Kojo: Well, she is now in that position.
Mae: That's why I am.
Kojo: She has her own church. I guess as time goes by, the public and journalist such as Barbara and myself will be able to scrutinize what she does to. Thank you very much.
Kojo: Caller you are next, go ahead, please.
Caller #2: Okay, yeah, I would just like to say ahh. About this--what church you say?
Kojo: Evangel Temple.
Caller #2: Evangel Temple ahh. anytime you are putting your money -- your hard earned money in any church, and you don't see any way that it's benefitting the community and you just see some person--I mean some minister prospering. Then you know --that you just can't --I mean that you can't support that. There are a lot of things that go on in our country and if people--black people especially--would just stop supporting it, they can do something about that. Christ said, "many false prophet would arise", and if you looking more on man than you are on God -- or toward God--you can be deceived and that is what is happening here.
Barbara: I hope that I have tried to say yes. The youth program--The Bible college that they are putting together is second to none. That is the problem. I don't want to loose those things. I want to be able to go and sit down in my church and feel that I am not being duped. I don't want to be deceived. I want to be able to build something with the church.
These things are to turn away others. I remember when I went away to Ethiopia --and I came back. And I reported to the commuity on this show.
Kojo: I remember.
Barbara: I went to Evangel Temple and asked the leadership, to please let me appeal for funds from the pulpit, and if you don't want me, will you please do it? now how close to a community to a world issue could that have been, but of course, no. Because any kind of fund raising that goes against what they are doing, is not ahh--is frowned upon.
Kojo: Let's talk about this drawing of line just a little bit more. Is there a point in which one begins to feel that what one gives to the church, goes less to the broader community and more for the expansion of the church itself? Is there also a point when one feel that the money one is subscribing is going less to the community and maybe less even to the church and more to the personal advantagement -- building up of the minister himself-- and at what point does one see this?
Mae: It would depends on how much there is exposure. How much is the congregation exposed or how much is revealed about where the money goes--how its done--what kind of budget? What kind of accountability does the pastor give to the congregation? And people are rather passive. You go to church you hear great music you get all emotional--you give your tithes --you don't worry about it. But I think that's the issue-- some people --
Kojo: But some people worry about it in a slightly different way. I have heard people say that, whenever you through out the analogies that the Bible says that, "it being easier for a camel to pass through the eyes of a needle than a rich man to get into the Kingdom of Heaven. You will hear people say, "I want my pastor to look good". I want my pastor to have several cars, I want my pastor to live in a good house because he is my pastor he is a symbol of me and the rest of the congregation. And we want him to look good. Is there anything necessarily wrong with that?
Mae: There' nothing wrong with that as long as there is a balance. I think you can judge that and you can tell what is going on by looking at the needs in the congregation. What kinds of programs are they implementing. And I really didn't see many for the black community at that church. And in reference to the conversation a few minutes ago about my position as a pastor, my position and my call came out as a result of the things I did not see happening -- its's very, very small but my husband and I are the biggest tithe payers.
Kojo: And you certainly don't intend to repeat what you feel ---
Mae: Indeed, not from that experience.
Kojo: Caller you're next.
Caller #3: Thank you Kojo. Kojo I would like to raise what I think are two fundamental problems around th issue that we are discussing this evening.
Kojo: Please state them briefly.
Caller #3: Number 1 is the problem relative to the literal interpretation of scripture---fundamentalism and what we are hearing tonight is the evident of a literal interpretation of scripture, and when ever that happens, it is inevitable, that you will get into the kind of problems that we are having with Evangel Temple and the electric church and many other of the kind of pseudo-cultic movements.
Kojo: So you think fundamentalism is part of the problem?
Caller #3: I think fundamentalism is a key part of the problem for the evening --for this program.
Kojo: Okay.
Caller #3: The second concern that's really a problem particularly in the black community as it relates to middle class blacks--is very often we do not permit our academic training to be on par with our religious or spiritual informational training.
Kojo: In other words we suspect we suspend our reasoning faculties when we are in church.
Caller #3: We suspend our reasonings faculties in the area of religion. We have the case of a lovely lady you have there with you tonight--
Kojo: Which one? they are both lovely.
Caller #3: Ms Reynolds. A very lovely lady --who is obviously very brilliant. But in the area of religion, you see a kind of literalism in terms of religion discussions.
Kojo: You are saying the wrong thing to Barbara Reynolds. Let me allow her to interpret you right there. That's the concern she was expressing right before the show. Let me --let me have her respond to that.
Barbara: First of all, its almost impossible to assume that I'm responding literally, because I followed this feeling -- You can't know religion unless you have first of all, a spiritual love of God, and ahh So I think you are wrong to think that I just read the Bible. I have a spiritual sense. What's going on at Evangel Temple wrong demeans my spiritual feeling -- my mind -- my soul and my temperament.
Caller #3: Barbara, with all due respect to you, my dear, ahh a lady who is as intelligent as you are should not have been duped into going to that type of religious setting initially--to begin with. Because one should have been able to sense immediately that that kind of religious setting is incompatible with any type of intellectual quest for truth.
Barbara: You see you're. You're very familiar to me. I'll talk to you after the show because that's a long story. I recognize his voice.
Kojo: Thank you very much. We do have to go. We do have another telephone to take.
Mae: I'd like to say that at one point in one of the meeting, I'm in the shool of -- I'm a student of Religion at Howard. and ahh I was approached by my elder at that time, and said, "What are you learning a Howard University?" And he spent the entire meeting criticizing me for being enrolled at Howard University. He said I could do nothing to help them with the Bible school.
Kojo: She is enrolled in the school of religion here. Caller I'd hasten to point out to you, that it seems to me, that for the past half hour, Barbara has demonstrated that she's taken a very reasonable approach to the situation of the church, so to suggest that if you look at an institution and you see any aspect of it that is wrong-- that you should immediately refuse to associate yourself with the institution in any way. tends to serve the notion that we should simply abandon anything in which there is conflict and walk away and look for something else. Well, some people would consider that opportunism--if you believe in something --then you have to stick around and fight for a while.
Ahh caller you're next.
Caller #4: Kojo, I guess I would be labeled as a gentile-- not a Christian, because I don't belong to any particular denomination or faith.
Kojo: That doesn't mean that you're not a Christian.
Caller #4: Ahh I do watch a lot of TV ministries. Ahh I go to church from time to time, but I'm somewhat like turned off from grassroots churches-- particularly those that like to pass the collection plate around--- I'm looking for a positive uplifting message that involves me in positive role.
Kojo:j Okay, we've got get out of here. So, you got to hurry up.
Caller#4: Okay. the question I want to raise, the comment I want to raise is that--I've noticed that notable TV ministries place a strong emphasis on 'giving to God'. Okay. For God's work. Whereby, if you go to some grassroot churches, they will point out to you specifically--that they need noney to keep the power running. Ahh how would you address those ministries that tell you right off the bat that your money is not all going into the ministries and the use of electricity whatever. As opposed those TV ministries that really emphasis that God is ahh wanting you to give--and that ahh.
Kojo: That's the question and the second part of the show, Dr. Lawrence Jones, the dean of Howard University School of Divinity, a minister himself will be joining us. We'll get into a little bit more about television ministries and the implication of that-- Reverend Cleveland Powell, a minister from -----Baptist Temple will also be joining us -- so we will discuss that in a greater length. In the mean while Barbara you--
Barbara: Just one point. I want it to be so, that those ministers who are building something--will not be hurt by these charlatans. For example, if this woman wants to build a city, I don't want people to say, "well, because that ministry is wrong we are not going to give to anybody. Because ministers have a gift -- many of them -- to do good. And the only thing that the congregation must do, is ask tough questions, to stand there-- to be a nuisance-- a pain in the neck--If you want to -- It's just like this lady--should she be hurt by what they're doing? If she gets up and say, "help me build a school?" When you look at over here-- and punish her.
I mean ministers do give leadership. They can build and we should listen to them. But we have to ask the right questions.
Kojo: And if you ask the right questions, hopefully you will get the right answers. Hopefully this discussion has served to foster some understanding of the broader issues which we are now getting ready to discuss. As we said earlier, Evangel Temple is just one example. I'm sure you know of many yourself for the second part of our discussion with you. We will be beginning right after a few brief announcements-- I know you'll find them interesting.
We will explore and see whether those charges are valid or not and what you feel about the relationship between church and churchgoer. We are doing that with Barbara Reynolds who joins us in her capacity as a journalist. Who joins us in her capacity both as a journalist and in the capacity as a member of Evangel Temple. Welcome Barbara.
Also joining us -- Rev. Mae Harrison, who is co- pastor of the Arise Christian Tabernacle. She was a member of Evangel Temple church and left I guess, under some degree of protest and formed your own church, Arise Christian Tabernacle in 1986. Why did you leave the church?
Mae: I became very depressed over some of the things that were going on in the church. And I also felt that I couldn't use my abilities -- my gifts ahh freely in that ahh congregation. So ahh-- I felt led with my husband and my sons to form our own church. To supposedly fulfill some of those things.
Kojo: What specifically were you dissatisfied with?
Mae: Well, Ahh I did not like the nepotism that was presented there -- that I was exposed to and I didn't like the procedures or the techniques they used for raising money.
Kojo: What specifically didn't you like about the techniques for raising money.?
Mae: There seemed to be a lot of pressure on people-- to ahh and use of the scriptures to support that pressure. And I might add-- undue pressure. And ahh-- for me it was gradual thing. Because when I first joined the church, I was very much please with what I saw. But when I became a deacon I begin to see things that were somewhat misleading.
Kojo: But you join church. I guess, initially for spiritual upliftment --
Mae: Yes, I did.
Kojo: --and you found that in that church. Then you rose after a period of time to the position of deacon. Then you got the position of deacon, What specifically didn't you like? Did you feel your voice was being stifled in some way?
Mae: Of course, yes. And there was not a freedom to speak what you felt. And as a matter of fact, people have left the church. I know at least forty people that have left the church in the last three months myself. And it is a very large congregation. I don't know that many people -- even when I was there -- Even in my capacity as deacon. Ahh But people have called me since-- A lot of them don't know why I left because I was afraid to share it-- and I think that's one of the things that makes it hard. When you can't speak your mind. When there's that freedom that Jesus promised us that we would have. Ahh --You don't have it there. And ahh-- I recently talked with a friend of mine, who is still there,--and she had met another friend--she didn't know was not there and they were afraid to talk about this issue. And through the conversation --one said something and the other said, and they finally realized, "I didn't know you saw it that way"-- and they were able to share. But there is a restriction.
Kojo: Well people join churches and people leave churches. There's nothing particularly unusual about that. But in this case you're saying that the leaving is more than can normally be expected and that that has to do with the fact that people feel-- some people feel repressed within their congregation. But obviously there are other people --and we will talk to Barbara in a minute-- but there are other people who feel quite happy. You said that you and your husband took out a second mortgage in order to meet the building fund. Was that beyond your ability to pay?
Mae: Beyond our means? No, It was not, But I think on the- the technique used--we were taken out of the city (the deacon were) on a trip. And they wined and dined you. And then the next day. They presented--supposedly what God had said, that each member that worked was suppose to give $5,000. And ahh that's the thing I object to.
Kojo: Over what period of time?
Mae: Over a period of five months. And ahh they said that, God said it-- and that's what bothered me. At first we got caught up in the wining and dining--and they always used the fact that you were a deacon. You were suppose to be committed to your leaders and the spiritual authority and all that. So you felt the pressure. I you didn't do what they said to do, that some how God was going to bring down His wrath on you.
Kojo: So you made an attempt to meet it?
Mae: Yes we did.
Kojo: And at what point did you decide you no longer wanted to do this?
Mae: When I felt I could know longer take the entire environment. Because I didn't have the freedom to do what I-- the freedom to talk or speak --or even ask questions about what was going on. Why and how did God say $5.000. And even the "borrowing and selling" too.
Kojo: Barbara you have been at Evangel Temple for about seven years or so.
Barbara: Right.
Kojo: You find spiritual upliftment there.
Barbara: Yes.
Kojo: Do you have any problems with what Rev. Harrison--Pastor Harrison has described here about the method for raising money?
Barbara: Well I find the whole thing very sad, because Evangel Temple meant so much to so many people. It has changed my life ahh When I came to this city, I came in one condition and I've been changed from glory to glory. I would like nothing more than to be a member of the church. There was a time when people said, "Oh Barbara, how could you go to a church with white leadership?" And after I began to understand the word, and to say what a very good Christian was, that was not a problem.
The problem comes now in the fund raising. Let me give some very specific examples. People who are older people who live on fixed incomes -- people who are poor have been asked to give $5,000. Two people at home that's $10,000. I've seen older people mortgage their homes--people who should be in the years of their lives to live comfortably under the pressure of debt.
The white minister that came to the church, his name is Rev. James Robinson. He spoke on something that I had been saying that was very scriptural. He said, "the Bible said in Romans 'to owe no man'" an I turned to my friend who was there with me, Vivian Adams. I said, "Vivian, isn't this what I have said," All this fund raising, I'm not talking about tithing, but tithing is one thing--
Kojo: Most churches do it.
Barbara: --Right, this is tax on top of the tithing. I said, "This is not scriptural'. The Bible says "owe no man". Sure---- God would be ministering to the church would talk about it. So later the magazine --the Evangel magazine--it came to my home. And I said, " Oh I'm so glad because here's someone who had finally spoken what I had thought all along. I read the whole article nothing about what the man said about owe no man, nothing about what the brother talked about--let's not get emotional let's look at our bank account, lets have reason. So, I went to the church leadership --being a journalist I was burning.
Kojo: I was about to say Barbara Reynolds is not going to stay in any place where she can't speak up. You --you will speak up.
Barbara: Right, Right, Right. So, I went to them and I said, "Why did you present this article as if it were the truth. You made no reference to what this man said about the pressure and oppression of debt. He said, he did not want to confuse the membership. I said, Oh, you don't want to confuse the membership with facts?" Well---- I think the Bible says you should know the truth and the truth will make you free.
One Sunday I was there and we were suppose to take communion and the leadership began to talk about when we were gong to leave 432 acres that's going to be out near Landum and all the million fund raising thing we were suppose to do-- and we forgot to have communion. Can you imagine that?
Ahh-- so, these were kinds of things that we backed away from and when I came there, I thought we were gong to be building a Garden In The Ghetto, something for the urban community. I don't understand why we're gong to be tucked away in Landham, Maryland. and where I don't think many people have transportation to.
I want to raise the specter of Jim Jones. And I don't want anybody to call me later and say, Barbara you compared the Meares to Jim Jones, because I didn't--But I do want to say this, when that incident happened in California. I said, Oh, what would have happened if there had been a journalist or a TV studio watching Jim Jones-- So my position is whether what they are doing is bad or good, there should be an Evening Exchange watching. There should be a Barbara Reynolds watching, or minister speaking out-- because if it's good, let it stand-- but if it's bad let it fall on its own foundation.
As a journalist, I feel that I would just be there taking notes, writing names recording it. So that if it is a disaster you want to know. So, if its good then let it stand.
Kojo: You strike an interesting balance. You say on one hand, you still getting spiritual upliftment and on the other hand, those things that you disagree with in particularly how the church sees its future. You're willing to stay and speak out.
Barbara: Un huh. Part of it. I was receiving spiritual upliftment. I'm getting less spiritual upliftment because that is now the element of deceit and dishonesty in it---entering. Ahh I don't have ---I'm still hoping for the church that I love to come back to me. because actually I haven't seen another church that has meant as much to me. Ah, during the holidays I had dinner with about 15 people from Evangel Temple--
all of them heart broken. All of them wanted our church--our way of life back again. The pressure the specter of wrong fund raising and deception.
Mae: I would like to say I spent a lot of time during the holidays talking with people that callled me about the same thing. They are hurting people are hurting and the thing that bothered me mostly when I was there was that there was not any black programs and I wonder what they are doing for the blacks community? I didn't see anything and that's where my heart cry was. It was so severe with me and my husband, that when we left we began to visit other churches and we didn't know that black churches were doing so many great things. and that's the tragedy of it all. I would like to say that and you can talk to some of them. We have founded an organization called "Prayer and Watch, PAW and they can write P,O.Box 44365, Fort Washington, Md. 20744. So we can have some conversation. A sharing and there are other people involved, legal people as well as lay people involved.
Kojo: Okay, let me go into the phones in a second and I think we're going to have a few people on the line who are member of Evangel Temple Church. But before we do that, now that you are co-pastor of Arise Christian Tabernacle, What do you ask the members of your congregation to give to your church? what do you consider a reasonable financial obligation between parishioner and church?
Mae: Okay. the tithes of course can be argued.
Kojo: Sure
Mae: I believe, I've always felt this way that people give according to how they feel to do it. It's a free kind of thing. They have to feel free in their spirit. You shouldn't feel pressured.
You shouldn't be forced through meetings. You shouldn't be subjected to advertisement to cause you to give. I spent many meetings where the convesation at the church I just recently left, Evangel Temple--was always on giving. Sort of like a psychological things to prime you to giving the money. And when you hear it all the time, you begin to feel guilty about not giving and that's where I was.
Barbara: Kojo, you know I had seen a time when people had been asked to stand up and explain why they didn't give money. Unfortunately, I wasn't there because I just want them to have me stand up and explain why I don't give the money. But, I that is not the way it's done. I mean, I am for tithing 10% of your income because I have personally understood that the more I have given away--
Kojo: the more has come back.
Barbara: --the more it comes back. But there's more-- its like almost like Oral Roberts in a sense. Its reaching that proportion where you feel a little chicanery--you feel that the money is all --it's more powerful than the blessing.
Kojo: Two points of clarification, Oral Roberts, course, has claimed that in a recent conversation with God, He was told that if he does not raise a certain amount of money by a certain specific Tuesday? God has told that he would take him from this earth. Also, Evangel Temple is not the only church in Washington or in the country where this kind of controversy exists. We raise it an example only because it has been in the news media recently as people are talking about it. We do have to go to the telephones and caller you're on the air go ahead, please.
Caller: I am member of Evangel Temple.
Kojo: Thank you for joining us.
Caller: Thank you. I was very, very concerned about what I'm hearing on television this evening. Mainly because these kinds of issuses are not the kind of issues that ----a public forum. These things are those kinds of issues that we as Christian should be addressing with one another. And being able to come together and address those issues----. The other thing that concerns me quite a bit, is that Evangel Temple has been-- very important within the black community.
Programs for feeding the poor-- programs for clothing.
Kojo: and--and the church has been on this show before. One of the elders has talked about some of the things--the positive things that they have done. Even before this controversy came up.
Caller: That's right. As far as the fund raiser, this concern, I think one can began to search their own heart as to how they should give. I believe that Bishop is the voice of God to the congregation at Evangel Temple and that he was not out of line by requesting that each person make a certain donation. Of course, you know all have different types of abundances and I personally have not completed my pledge but I am not feeling under any pressure. As far as that is concern. No one has brow beat me. I am not under any kind of condemnation. And I plan to meet my pledge.
Kojo: Okay. I understand what you are saying. Let me get back to first issue you raise, and that is that is should be settled within the cofines of that particularly Christian community.
Caller: Well, I am not just talking about within Evangel Temple, but within the Christian community. The body of Christ just does not end at Evangel Temple. It is a full body of Christ. It is all churches -- all people who in the body. And--
Kojo: I think we are broadcasting to what would be a predominately Christian audience. And therefore this would qualify a discussion event within the Christian community.
Caller: I'm not sure that's true. But I really believe that this type of issue should have been something that should be brought up to leadership -- not only within Evangel Temple but possible national leadership as far as the Christian body is concern.
Kojo: But that's the issue we are raising--What is the proper relationship between churchgoer and church nationally or internationally.
Barbara: --We are Biblical. The bible says go tell the news Babylon is fallen. That is what happens when you don't tell the news. When you try to keep something a secret and you whisper in the attic. This is the element of cultism--when you can't talk openly criticize and change things. And every criticism is destructive as destructive. For example, there are times when people have tried to raise issues and have been booed. There are times when people have brought things to the leadership and have been shouted down-- I am sure. You were a deacon, you have seen that more than I have. I have not had the vehicle.
Mae: As a matter of fact, I was informed by one of the elders before I left, because I was disturbed over some things, ahh-- that I had better not go in and make a complaint if I didn't want to come out smelling. So, these kind of things do put fear in your heart. And cause you not to want--you want to cause strife in the church. I would like to make a comment to about, the fact that money was requested when you say God said, that's the thing I had problems with. If the pastor wants me to give, why not say, I am your pastor, I would like to see you give X amount of dollars and that would reduce that deception that I saw. Basing it on --saying God saying--blaming it on God--saying this is what God wants from you.
Also, in reference to the programs, I was a deacon there, granted I did not know everything that went on in the church, but the program of "feed the hungry program", I've talked with the man that was in charged of that. He left because he did not get the support he felt he should have received. Now think as a member of the church, also the "Prison ministry" that deacon has also left. I think these things are saying something to us.
And I think as members if you are there, you need to ask questions about why are these people leaving the church?
Also, as members, we need to know where our tithes are going.
And people have said to me, "I pay my money, I pay my tithes God will take care of it. But no, God has asked us to be responsible stewards of our money. We can't give and expect our pastors to do whatever they choose to do. We have to be asked-- Asked them what are you doing with it. They have to give an account to you. I think this is one reason these kinds of things do happen. Pastors have the freedom to do whatever--because the congregation is passive.
Kojo: Okay. We do have to move on, but do you have a final comment?
Caller: Yes I do.
Kojo: Go right ahead.
Caller: I'd like to make reference to Reverend Harrison. That as a pastor and beginning of a new church--that these types of issues that you are raising now on the public forum, are probably one of the issues that you are going to have to deal with as a pastor in continuing your work. I would just say that to recall this particular converstion as these issues come up an place yourself in the position of the leadership of the Evangel Temple.
Kojo: Well, she is now in that position.
Mae: That's why I am.
Kojo: She has her own church. I guess as time goes by, the public and journalist such as Barbara and myself will be able to scrutinize what she does to. Thank you very much.
Kojo: Caller you are next, go ahead, please.
Caller #2: Okay, yeah, I would just like to say ahh. About this--what church you say?
Kojo: Evangel Temple.
Caller #2: Evangel Temple ahh. anytime you are putting your money -- your hard earned money in any church, and you don't see any way that it's benefitting the community and you just see some person--I mean some minister prospering. Then you know --that you just can't --I mean that you can't support that. There are a lot of things that go on in our country and if people--black people especially--would just stop supporting it, they can do something about that. Christ said, "many false prophet would arise", and if you looking more on man than you are on God -- or toward God--you can be deceived and that is what is happening here.
Barbara: I hope that I have tried to say yes. The youth program--The Bible college that they are putting together is second to none. That is the problem. I don't want to loose those things. I want to be able to go and sit down in my church and feel that I am not being duped. I don't want to be deceived. I want to be able to build something with the church.
These things are to turn away others. I remember when I went away to Ethiopia --and I came back. And I reported to the commuity on this show.
Kojo: I remember.
Barbara: I went to Evangel Temple and asked the leadership, to please let me appeal for funds from the pulpit, and if you don't want me, will you please do it? now how close to a community to a world issue could that have been, but of course, no. Because any kind of fund raising that goes against what they are doing, is not ahh--is frowned upon.
Kojo: Let's talk about this drawing of line just a little bit more. Is there a point in which one begins to feel that what one gives to the church, goes less to the broader community and more for the expansion of the church itself? Is there also a point when one feel that the money one is subscribing is going less to the community and maybe less even to the church and more to the personal advantagement -- building up of the minister himself-- and at what point does one see this?
Mae: It would depends on how much there is exposure. How much is the congregation exposed or how much is revealed about where the money goes--how its done--what kind of budget? What kind of accountability does the pastor give to the congregation? And people are rather passive. You go to church you hear great music you get all emotional--you give your tithes --you don't worry about it. But I think that's the issue-- some people --
Kojo: But some people worry about it in a slightly different way. I have heard people say that, whenever you through out the analogies that the Bible says that, "it being easier for a camel to pass through the eyes of a needle than a rich man to get into the Kingdom of Heaven. You will hear people say, "I want my pastor to look good". I want my pastor to have several cars, I want my pastor to live in a good house because he is my pastor he is a symbol of me and the rest of the congregation. And we want him to look good. Is there anything necessarily wrong with that?
Mae: There' nothing wrong with that as long as there is a balance. I think you can judge that and you can tell what is going on by looking at the needs in the congregation. What kinds of programs are they implementing. And I really didn't see many for the black community at that church. And in reference to the conversation a few minutes ago about my position as a pastor, my position and my call came out as a result of the things I did not see happening -- its's very, very small but my husband and I are the biggest tithe payers.
Kojo: And you certainly don't intend to repeat what you feel ---
Mae: Indeed, not from that experience.
Kojo: Caller you're next.
Caller #3: Thank you Kojo. Kojo I would like to raise what I think are two fundamental problems around th issue that we are discussing this evening.
Kojo: Please state them briefly.
Caller #3: Number 1 is the problem relative to the literal interpretation of scripture---fundamentalism and what we are hearing tonight is the evident of a literal interpretation of scripture, and when ever that happens, it is inevitable, that you will get into the kind of problems that we are having with Evangel Temple and the electric church and many other of the kind of pseudo-cultic movements.
Kojo: So you think fundamentalism is part of the problem?
Caller #3: I think fundamentalism is a key part of the problem for the evening --for this program.
Kojo: Okay.
Caller #3: The second concern that's really a problem particularly in the black community as it relates to middle class blacks--is very often we do not permit our academic training to be on par with our religious or spiritual informational training.
Kojo: In other words we suspect we suspend our reasoning faculties when we are in church.
Caller #3: We suspend our reasonings faculties in the area of religion. We have the case of a lovely lady you have there with you tonight--
Kojo: Which one? they are both lovely.
Caller #3: Ms Reynolds. A very lovely lady --who is obviously very brilliant. But in the area of religion, you see a kind of literalism in terms of religion discussions.
Kojo: You are saying the wrong thing to Barbara Reynolds. Let me allow her to interpret you right there. That's the concern she was expressing right before the show. Let me --let me have her respond to that.
Barbara: First of all, its almost impossible to assume that I'm responding literally, because I followed this feeling -- You can't know religion unless you have first of all, a spiritual love of God, and ahh So I think you are wrong to think that I just read the Bible. I have a spiritual sense. What's going on at Evangel Temple wrong demeans my spiritual feeling -- my mind -- my soul and my temperament.
Caller #3: Barbara, with all due respect to you, my dear, ahh a lady who is as intelligent as you are should not have been duped into going to that type of religious setting initially--to begin with. Because one should have been able to sense immediately that that kind of religious setting is incompatible with any type of intellectual quest for truth.
Barbara: You see you're. You're very familiar to me. I'll talk to you after the show because that's a long story. I recognize his voice.
Kojo: Thank you very much. We do have to go. We do have another telephone to take.
Mae: I'd like to say that at one point in one of the meeting, I'm in the shool of -- I'm a student of Religion at Howard. and ahh I was approached by my elder at that time, and said, "What are you learning a Howard University?" And he spent the entire meeting criticizing me for being enrolled at Howard University. He said I could do nothing to help them with the Bible school.
Kojo: She is enrolled in the school of religion here. Caller I'd hasten to point out to you, that it seems to me, that for the past half hour, Barbara has demonstrated that she's taken a very reasonable approach to the situation of the church, so to suggest that if you look at an institution and you see any aspect of it that is wrong-- that you should immediately refuse to associate yourself with the institution in any way. tends to serve the notion that we should simply abandon anything in which there is conflict and walk away and look for something else. Well, some people would consider that opportunism--if you believe in something --then you have to stick around and fight for a while.
Ahh caller you're next.
Caller #4: Kojo, I guess I would be labeled as a gentile-- not a Christian, because I don't belong to any particular denomination or faith.
Kojo: That doesn't mean that you're not a Christian.
Caller #4: Ahh I do watch a lot of TV ministries. Ahh I go to church from time to time, but I'm somewhat like turned off from grassroots churches-- particularly those that like to pass the collection plate around--- I'm looking for a positive uplifting message that involves me in positive role.
Kojo:j Okay, we've got get out of here. So, you got to hurry up.
Caller#4: Okay. the question I want to raise, the comment I want to raise is that--I've noticed that notable TV ministries place a strong emphasis on 'giving to God'. Okay. For God's work. Whereby, if you go to some grassroot churches, they will point out to you specifically--that they need noney to keep the power running. Ahh how would you address those ministries that tell you right off the bat that your money is not all going into the ministries and the use of electricity whatever. As opposed those TV ministries that really emphasis that God is ahh wanting you to give--and that ahh.
Kojo: That's the question and the second part of the show, Dr. Lawrence Jones, the dean of Howard University School of Divinity, a minister himself will be joining us. We'll get into a little bit more about television ministries and the implication of that-- Reverend Cleveland Powell, a minister from -----Baptist Temple will also be joining us -- so we will discuss that in a greater length. In the mean while Barbara you--
Barbara: Just one point. I want it to be so, that those ministers who are building something--will not be hurt by these charlatans. For example, if this woman wants to build a city, I don't want people to say, "well, because that ministry is wrong we are not going to give to anybody. Because ministers have a gift -- many of them -- to do good. And the only thing that the congregation must do, is ask tough questions, to stand there-- to be a nuisance-- a pain in the neck--If you want to -- It's just like this lady--should she be hurt by what they're doing? If she gets up and say, "help me build a school?" When you look at over here-- and punish her.
I mean ministers do give leadership. They can build and we should listen to them. But we have to ask the right questions.
Kojo: And if you ask the right questions, hopefully you will get the right answers. Hopefully this discussion has served to foster some understanding of the broader issues which we are now getting ready to discuss. As we said earlier, Evangel Temple is just one example. I'm sure you know of many yourself for the second part of our discussion with you. We will be beginning right after a few brief announcements-- I know you'll find them interesting.
